Stealth, and serious attack on Egypt by U.S. congress, part 1: Interview with Council Of Churches
Regional-Egypt, Politics, 5/12/1998

There is legislation before the U.S. Congress that could severely affect the Arab States, specifically Egypt. The U.S. House and Senate bills in their current form target U.S. aid currently provided to Egypt, and are meant to provide maximum pressure on Egypt in terms of policy, since Egypt is one focal point of Arab political strength and a future economic force.

In this special, we will first provide some background information and then we will deal with the legislation and its effects tomorrow.

Though the sponsors of the bills in both the U.S. House and Senate deny that Egypt is the target of the laws, the economic effect of this legislation can be quite "dramatic."

Following allegations by some of religious persecution of Copts (Christians) in Egypt, ArabicNews.com decided to investigate this subject as we have covered this issue before regarding the official statements of the parties involved. U.S. legislation, if enacted, under the claim of protecting religious liberty, has some sinister and severe "side effects." It is those "side effects" of the law that we will be focusing on as they relate to the Arab states.

An interview with: Council Of Churches of the City of New York, Executive Director: John Hiemstr

What's your involvements with the Copts in Egypt, What's the relationship, and what are your concerns?

We're an organization, protestant organization, about 29 denomination that belong to us in the city of New York, and we're an organization that's been in existence since 1815, the oldest ecumenical organization in America, I think, and we address justice concerns and issues both locally, statewide and occasionally even international.

Recently, it came to our attention some months ago that there were people in the N.Y. area who came from places where it is not safe to be a Christian, so we began investigating what that meant, and we got briefings from the state department on persecution of Christians in various places, and began to interview officials and people who had complaints, and that's how we got into it.

-You said you received briefings from the State Department?

Yes we did. Before we went to Egypt we did go to Washington, before that we did receive written notices from the state department

-The state department had sent it to you? For what purpose?

We were investigating if there is truth to the allegations we were hearing. So, one of the countries that was on the list, where there were allegations of persecutions was Egypt, so we began to have conversations with Egyptian people about that, and at that point we met some Egyptian leaders in the area who thought that there were not persecutions going on in Egypt, and in effect invited us to go to Egypt to go see for ourselves, which we did.

..We received our initial invitation from a man named Saif Ashmawi,.... and he said to us "don't go off without checking your facts very carefully", he said "there is no organized persecution in Egypt and I encourage you to go to Egypt to see for yourself." While we're having this conversation with him, he finally said to us, "Why don't you go and see and I can arrange for you to have an official invitation." So, we, considered this conversation and in late December 97, we received an invitation from the Egyptian government to come to Egypt and they would help us talk to anybody we wanted to talk to while we were there.

- You went to Egypt, what did you find out?

Well, we found out that there was no organized, in our opinion, we did not find any evidences of state-sanctioned persecution of Christians. In fact quite the opposite, the Egyptian government was doing everything possible, at least at the national level, to counter acts of violence between religious groups. And we met with the president (Mubarak), we had an interview with him personally, we met with Pope Shenouda, head of the Coptic church (Christian orthodox), we also met with the leader of the Protestant movement in Egypt, a man named Dr. Safwat el-Baiady, he is the president of the protestant churches in Egypt and the general secretary of the school system in Egypt, and we met with high ranking officials with the Egyptian government, and with the Muslim faith, with the Grand Imam, and we met with Bishop Malik of the Episcopal Church in the Middle East.

[Editors' note: Others in the delegation were: Mrs. Patricia R. Butts, wife of Dr. Butts; the Rev. Father Mardiros Chevian, of the Armenian Orthodox Church; the Rev. Charlesworth Edwards, Pastor of the United Moravian Church; the Rev. Michele P. Ellison, Lutheran; Mr. Morris Gurley, Esq., Lay Leader of St. Paul and St. Andrew United Methodist Church; the Rev. Carolyn Holloway, Pastor of the DeWitt Reformed Church and second Vice President of the Council; the Venerable Michael S. Kendall, Archdeacon, New York Episcopal Diocese and third Vice President of the Council; and the Rev. N. J. L'Heureux, Executive Director of the Queens Federation of Churches, and Secretary of the Council.

Also in Egypt, The delegation visited the Coptic Museum, the Mar-Girgis Church (St. George's), the Church of the Holy Family, the Church of the Virgin Mary (The Hanging Church), the Coptic Cathedral, the Ben Ezra Synagogue, the Armenian Cathedral, the Anglican Cathedral, and spent a day in Luxor.

Also the council had issued a formal statement that said:

Everywhere we went and every religious leader we interviewed told us of the good relationships between the leaders of the two faiths. Both the Grand Imam and the Coptic Pope spoke appreciative words of each other and of the regular meetings they and other leaders have together. We often heard from both Muslim and Christian that "we are Egyptians first and then Muslim or Christian second." In the 14 centuries the two faiths have lived side by side, they reported to us that a culture has developed in Egypt that both share in, with deep respect between them. "We are brothers. Our families have been friends for generations."

It was also reported that in the regular work life of Egyptians, religion is not a consideration in hiring or remuneration patterns. The religious community as well as government officials emphasized that in Egypt people see themselves as Egyptian before Muslim or Christian.

On claims of forced religious conversions: One of the sensitive questions our delegation raised related to charges that forcible conversions were made among Coptic girls who then would be unable to return to the Christian Faith since conversion away from Islam is prohibited by Muslim Law, the Sharia. This law, it has been reported, would then be backed up by judges in local areas, mostly in Upper Egypt among rural populations.

Some specific cases were referred to us for exploration. We raised the question everywhere, particularly among Christian leaders. What we were repeatedly told was that the possibility of forced conversion and the threat of violence was remote. In the cases we raised there were often complicating factors that arose out of family rivalries. In some cases girls would want to marry Muslim boys against their parents' wishes but to save embarrassment would report that they were forced. And, although Muslim Law does not allow conversion to Christianity, there are cases where conversion happens without force or violence resulting, unlike some other Muslim nations. We were assured that in Egypt the freedom of religion clause of the constitution would prevail if cases such as these reached the courts.

In one case, where it was reported that a family was killed when a girl returned to them after having been "converted", we found, in conversation with the American Embassy, that the facts were quite different. It was more likely that the girl's brother perpetrated the murders in a rage in an attempt to save the family's honor.

There are other incidents of violence reported that we were unable to investigate.] end of statement.

Continuing with the interview: - So it is fair to say that you had a pretty positive impression at least on the official level.

We had a very positive experience at the official level, that's correct.

- And you did not see any evidence of persecution yourself. If we can shift to sum up the source of the controversy, which is the effort in the US congress to legislate some laws against Christian persecution.

That's the Wolf-Specter bill.

- And that is being initiated at the Senate foreign relation committee

Yes, it is being before the house and the Senate, one being a senator (Senator Spector of Pennsylvania) and (Congressman Wolf of Virginia)

- And what will the bill do?

Essentially what the bill says, is that where there is religious persecution that can be proved, or at least highly suspected, that US government will take the position that aid will not go to countries where there is this kind of discrimination going on.This is not targeted towards Egypt, this is a general bill, and lately has had some modifications to it including one that the president may at his discretion make an exception to a country which even though some may think has persecution but for political and other reasons can override the bill......

We as a council of Churches have not endorsed the bill.

- What is your position on it?

Well, we're ambivalent at this point, I personally am ambivalent about it, I am inclined to think that we already have enough human rights legislation on the books to include religious persecution as one of the items, But I happen to identify that in particular, and in some cases, it may even make it worse for people of faith in a country if you withhold funds because of that, I think it has some nasty repercussions around the world.

- It may make them a target of (cut-off)?

Exactly, so many of us are ambivalent

- Did you testify before the congress?

No, there were representatives from the National Council of Churches that testified, and we generally are close to the National Council of Churches.

- And were they in favor of it?

They were opposing it

-They were opposing it?

Now that was an early version of this bill, and we're all looking at this bill as it is going along. In its first incarnation, it was very harsh, and absolutist. And I think that is what the Council Of Churches was most upset about, and I would agree with that. Now as they make more realistic and modify it, I can have some sympathy with it, because there are some places in the world which ride roughshod over people of faith, it doesn't matter what faith that is, I don't want them to kill anybody whether they are a Moslem, a Hindu, a Christian or Zoroastrian, I think people should be able to express their faith without being arrested, without having their places of worship burned, so I am generally sympathetic to people of faith as you might expect....

In our report (the council's report) we just don't say that everything is wonderful in Egypt, we do point out that there are some places where in local areas there is hatred among groups, people are being targeted because they are this faith or that, very much like in this country (U.S.A.).

-- Thank you

Previous Stories:
  Delegation of New York Churches in Egypt   (3/14/1998)
  Copts tell US to butt out of Egypt's internal affairs   (11/12/1997)
  Israel and U.S. use the minority card to pressure Egypt   (9/2/1997)

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