Rice says Palestinian people's aspiration for peace unchanged
Palestine-USA, Politics, 1/28/2006

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the victory of Hamas in the Palestinian legislative elections was "somewhat unexpected" but does not change the deep aspiration for peace of the Palestinian people.

In an interview with the Reuters news agency January 26, Rice said the Hamas victory was an expression of the Palestinian people's desire for change from the "corruption and non-accountability and lack of transparency" that characterized the rule of the late Palestinian President Yasser Arafat.

Hamas, which captured 76 of the 132 seats of the Palestinian legislature, has sworn itself to Israel's destruction. In contrast, Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas won a landslide victory in January 2005, after a campaign based on seeking a negotiated peace with Israel.

Rice said that the Hamas victory does not change the US view that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

"It's a terrorist organization; we're not going to deal with it. It has certain obligations if it wishes to govern in accordance with international standards, and we will see whether it's prepared to meet those obligations," she said.

The secretary said that she has been in contact with representatives from the United Nations, Russia, and the European Union, which along with the United States are known as the Quartet when dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

All the Quartet members are in agreement with the view of UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan that Hamas cannot have one foot in the terrorist camp and the other in politics, she said.

Rice said that she has spoken with Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and conveyed reassurances that the United States and the international community "remain committed to the proposition that terrorism has to end, violence has to end and the Israeli state has to be recognized by any party that would be involved in governing."

She said peace for Palestinians means that Israelis also must have peace, which is the basis for the Quartet's policy of supporting two states -- Israel and Palestine -- living side by side in peace and security.

"As my colleague (British Foreign Secretary) Jack Straw said earlier, Hamas is going to have to make some choices," Rice said.

Although the Palestinian elections produced a Hamas victory, the secretary said the United States always supports democracy.

"They had elections that by all accounts were free and fair; they had elections that were peaceful, and they and President Abbas... are to be congratulated for it," Rice said.

"The United States has to stand for democracy. And yes, there will sometimes be outcomes that surprise us. There will be sometimes outcomes, as the president said earlier, that are a wakeup call to leaders. But democracy is always preferable," she said in a separate January 26 interview with CBS radio news.

Rice said that given incidents in its own history, the United States "probably ought to be a little bit more tolerant and a little bit more understanding of the struggles of new democracy because certainly with America's history we have no reason for arrogance."

In a videoconference to the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, earlier that day Rice said, "Perhaps we have to step back and remember that our own journeys to democracy were also rocky and difficult."

"I come from a part of the United States in which my parents were not even guaranteed the right to vote until 1965, when I was 10 years old," she said, in reference to her early childhood in Alabama during the violent struggles of the civil rights movement, which sought to overturn centuries of government-sanctioned oppression against African Americans.

Here is Rice's interview with Saul Hudson, Carol Giacomo and Sue Pleming of Reuters News Agency:

MR. HUDSON: We thought we would start up on the Palestinian elections. The question is, if the US push for democracy ends up with a group that you call terrorists in power, what does that say for the push, and can you revise it, slow it down?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, first of all, democracy is always to be supported; and it's better because the alternative is to say that people ought to live without a voice in their affairs; that they should have no role in choosing those who will govern them; and that it is better to have lived, for instance, with Saddam Hussein's tyranny than to live with the admittedly difficult road to democracy on which the Iraqis are currently embarked. But the United States has to stand for democracy and for the right of people to choose those who will govern them.

The Middle East is a region that is in the midst of a massive transition. It's a region that for 60 years had a serious freedom deficit, where there was not political space for the development of alternative legitimate channels for political activity, where the choice was often authoritarian governments or expression of politics through violence; and that period is coming to an end as the people of Middle East, in election after election after election, go out and peacefully express themselves.

And I just want to say that the Palestinian people did that. They went out and they had elections that by all accounts were free and fair; they had elections that were peaceful, and they and President Abbas, who, as President of the country, oversaw those elections, are to be congratulated for it.

They voted for change. I think that we have to recognize that one of the legacies of the last ten years was, under the Arafat period, a period of corruption and non-accountability and lack of transparency. President Abbas and his team had worked -- were working hard to address those issues, but the Palestinian people clearly wanted change.

But I don't believe that they changed their view, that they expressed in the election of President Abbas, that they wanted a peaceful life. And if you're going to have peace for Palestinians, there has to be peace for Israelis. That means that there have to be two states living side by side. In order to have two states, clearly the right to Israel -- the right of Israel to exist will have to be recognized. Clearly there has to be renunciation of violence and terror. And clearly militias would have to be disarmed. So there are implications in governing that relate directly to those prospects for peace.

MR. HUDSON: So how do you, the United States, deal with the Palestinian Authority now that Hamas is in power?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, let me start by saying I had a long phone call this morning with President Abbas. Let me remind you again, he's the elected President of the Palestinian Authority. He won his own race by more than 60 percent last year. And we have been in touch with him, and I'm working with him.

We're watching very closely the process of government formation. As I understand it, they will convene the Palestinian Legislative Council, the President will oversee the formation of a government, and we will see where we are at that point. But any government that is going to be able to deal with the aspirations of its people for peace is going to have to do that in a context that the international community is stating quite clearly. I've been today in contact with members of the Quartet. We just had a phone call a little time ago -- as you know, we'll have a meeting on Monday -- where we, in this phone call, reaffirmed the view that Kofi Annan so eloquently said earlier: You can't have one foot in terror and the other in politics.

I've also been in touch with Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni; and to reassure Israel and Israelis that the United States and indeed the international community remain committed to the proposition that terrorism has to end, violence has to end and the Israeli state has to be recognized by any party that would be involved in governing.

MR. HUDSON: But you say you can't have one foot in the political area and one foot in being violent, but it turns out Hamas can be like that. It has its weapons and it's now a big political force. As a recommendation or a suggestion, what can you do to stop them having weapons?

SECRETARY RICE: It is a reality that democracy and violence are incompatible, and it's a reality that in order to engage the international community in a process of peaceful development and in pursuing peace that there are just certain elements that have to be in place. And so I suspect, as my colleague Jack Straw said earlier, Hamas is going to face some choices.

MR. HUDSON: So does that mean Hamas will have to meet these conditions for the international community to continue giving aid to the Palestinian Authority?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, everybody understands that the Palestinian people have humanitarian needs. It's a very poor population. The fact is that the United States considers or has listed Hamas as a terrorist organization. We're obviously not going to give aid to a terrorist organization. And as I said, dealing with a government that is committed to peace and peaceful development is the underlying principle for the work that we have been doing over the last several years to try both to better the lives of the Palestinian people and to secure peace for both Israelis and Palestinians.

MR. HUDSON: So am I reading it right that you will continue to support humanitarian assistance but not foreign aid to the government?

SECRETARY RICE: Saul, it's very early in the day to try and deal with every question and every hypothetical question, and so I don't want to try and do that. I think we will watch the process of government formation. We will watch what happens in the next few days. But obviously our position on Hamas is very clear. It's a terrorist organization; we're not going to deal with it. It has certain obligations if it wishes to govern in accordance with international standards, and we will see whether it's prepared to meet those obligations.

MS. GIACOMO: It looks like the support for the Russian proposal on Iran is gaining more strength, including from Iran and the Chinese. How is this affecting your push to refer Iran to the Security Council (inaudible)?

SECRETARY RICE: It's interesting that the Iranians have just now become interested in the Russian proposal. I think that says something about the role of pressure in this process. I think it shows that the Iranians are feeling that -- feeling the heat, if you will, that they are likely to be referred to the international -- to the Security Council. And so they're trying to find all kinds of ways to keep that from happening. And by the way, when the Iranians say, oh, we don't care if we're referred to the Security Council, well, clearly they do care because they're now running all over the world trying to avoid that.

But the Iranians have done plenty to be referred now to the Security Council. It's the Iranians who walked out of the EU-3 negotiations. It's the Iranians who were clearly in noncompliance and still started breaking seals and threatening to restart their reprocessing and enrichment activities. So our view is that when this is in the Security Council, we'll have a much better context for dealing with it.

MS. GIACOMO: Are you determined, though, to do it now, to make sure that the February meeting actually makes that decision? Or could you see, in an effort to continue to keep China and Russia on -- you know, within the international consensus, do you see room for continued -- I mean, you've said the time for talking is over.

SECRETARY RICE: The time for talking outside the Security Council is over. We should have learned something from this. Back in the fall, those who wished to refer the Iranians to the Security Council tabled a resolution but didn't vote it in order to give Iran an opportunity to demonstrate that it was prepared to live up to the international community's demand that it do what it needs to do. It didn't work. In fact, it produced the opposite reaction, which is that the Iranians walked out of the talks, they started breaking seals, they started threatening to -- they ended the moratorium, started threatening to reprocess and enrich, they're getting the equipment ready. So we've been down that track. It's time to put this in the Security Council.

MS. GIACOMO: Can you say conclusively that the meeting in February will take that referral vote and that the issue will be before the Security Council?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, it is our view that that should be the stand on February 2, and I see very strong evidence that we have a coalition of states that join us in that view.

MS. GIACOMO: Even though the Russians are seeing traction on their proposal, the Chinese have said today, look, you know --

SECRETARY RICE: I just want to repeat: Why is it that the Russians are suddenly seeing traction on their proposal? The Iranians could have shown traction on the proposal several months ago. The Russians went to the Iranians with this proposal quite some time ago, and the Iranians told them that it could only exist as a proposal if they also enriched on Iranian territory.

So the Iranians are doing nothing but trying to throw up chaff so that they're not referred to the Security Council, and people shouldn't let them get away with it.

MS. GIACOMO: What do you see as a timeline for sanctions on Iran? Are we talking days, weeks, months? Do you have a clear picture of when sanctions might be invoked?

SECRETARY RICE: We'll take this one step at a time. Obviously the key here is that the Security Council gives you a context with authority that doesn't exist in the IAEA Board of Governors. But it would be our hope that getting it to the Security Council begins a process of strengthening the IAEA's hand to get the answers to the kinds of questions that they have, to get the seals back on the Iranian equipment, that that would be the outcome. If it's not the outcome, then we can see what next steps are needed.

MS. GIACOMO: As you well know, there are a lot of people who are -- even people who want this issue before the Council are concerned that if it goes to the Security Council without confidence that Russia and China will not block what you want to do, be it a presidential statement or, you know, or something stronger down the road, that, you know, this causes a problem not just for proliferation regime and the nonproliferation regime but also the Security Council process.

So I guess my question is, what do you gain by taking it to the Security Council if you're not confident that Russia and China will be on board when you need them?

SECRETARY RICE: I can't make an assessment that Russia and China are not going to be on board when we need them because Russia and China both see this as a very serious issue. They've made that very clear. Now, they may believe that there is still the possibility of working this out in the IAEA Board of Governors. We will have that discussion. A substantial number of states, the particularly the EU-3, who are the ones, after all, that have tried to negotiate with the Iranians for almost two years, believe that the time has come to refer it to the Security Council.

I do believe that when we're in the Security Council states will take a good, hard look at what subsequent Iranian behavior there is and then recognize that the Security Council has to be able to act in order to prevent what we all want to prevent, which is access to technologies that could lead to a nuclear weapon for a state that has lost the confidence of the international system in its truthfulness.

MS. GIACOMO: I know this is a technical issue, but it's important to Russia, and that is their proposal to have the issue sent from the BOG to the Security Council not as a formal referral but just as an issue of interest. Is that something you can support?

SECRETARY RICE: I think the Security Council knows this is an issue of interest. The question is: When are we going to get to the Security Council so that you have the weight of the Security Council in a formal sense.

MS. GIACOMO: So a formal referral is very --

SECRETARY RICE: I think it's -- the time has come.

MS. GIACOMO: And this is a little broader question. Why hasn't the Bush Administration produced a comprehensive policy on Iran? There are analysts, experts, even Congress people, important Congress people, who say that, you know, you really haven't put together a big picture vision. And one of their criticisms is that there really isn't a coordinating, vigorous program of support for pro-democracy civil society groups.

Under Secretary Burns, in his speech at SAIS, you know, hinted -- well, more than hinted;he said that the United States was going to do more in this regard. Have you put together a plan for any kind of vigorous pro-democracy program for Iran, and how does Iran fit into your democracy vision?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, Iran is a state, probably the state in the region, in the Middle East, the area we've been talking about, which is most out of step with the region that we hope to see develop. It is the largest state sponsor of terrorism. It is a state that has now a President who says the most outrageous things about other states, like that Israel should be wiped off the map. It is a state that denies to its own citizens the kinds of freedoms that are being -- that the region is developing. Whatever the outcomes of elections, people have gone and freely voted for those who are going to govern them. They didn't have a Guardian Council sitting and telling them which thousand candidates could actually enter. So Iran is in the wrong direction. And Iran has a vision for the Middle East of a kind of theocratic, unelected few who dominate the politics and the lives of their people that is clearly out of step. In response to that -- and of course Iran is seeking the technologies that could lead to a nuclear weapon.

Now given that, the policy of the United States is, of course, to deal with the near-term threats that Iran poses; for instance, the nuclear issue, and we've talked at length about how we're dealing with that through a diplomatic coalition of states that are pursuing that. We are pursuing with others ways to make clear that Iran's support for terrorism at a time when the Iraqi people and the Lebanese people and the Palestinian people have been seeking a peaceful course is not to be accepted and has to be acknowledged. And yes, the President has made very clear that the Iranian people are no different than any other people; they deserve a right to a democratic future as well. And we do want to try and help through broadcasting, through the provision of information, through nongovernmental organization support for democracy elements in Iran. We want to be able to help and support.

Our quarrel is not with the Iranian people. Our quarrel is with the regime that oversees them and oppresses them. And one of the things that we will be very careful as we go forward is to try and make clear to the Iranian people that this is not aimed at them. I think that any measures that we want to take against Iran, we want to try to have them be measures that don't isolate the Iranian people. Iranian soccer players ought to be playing in the World Cup and coming to visit the rest of the world. Iranian university students ought to be going to universities abroad. Perhaps those Iranian musicians that apparently can't play Beethoven now in Tehran ought to be playing Beethoven outside.

So it is comprehensive. It recognizes Iran's -- the danger that Iran poses to the region. It recognizes that the Iranian people are not at fault for that regime. And I think you will see that we will reach out more and more to the Iranian people, both in hopes that they can have more control over their future but certainly so that they know that it is not our intention to isolate them.

MS. GIACOMO: Will there be any money or any new proposals in the budget for this?

SECRETARY RICE: We are continually reviewing what we can do to support democracy in Iran, just as in other places. There are some changed circumstances even with the election of Ahmadi-Nejad to the -- which changes the course and the tone of the Iranian regime. So we're constantly assessing and reassessing what more we would be able to do.

MS. GIACOMO: But you've made no decisions about that?

SECRETARY RICE: We have -- we are looking at some programs and at some time we'll be able to talk more about them.

MS. PLEMING: In Iraq, some Shiite leaders are saying that the US is increasingly leaning towards favoring the Sunni minority to sort of counter Iran in its nuclear ambitions. Is this true, in your opinion? And how does the US manage to counter Iran's influence in Iraq, which appears to be growing?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, Iraqis have to counter Iran's influence in Iraq, and I think that they will because I've seen no evidence that Iraqis want to trade Saddam Hussein's yoke for mullahs in Iran. These are two very different cultures, two very different histories, two very different views of the role of religion in politics. We saw this debate at the time of the Iraqi constitution, development of the Iraqi constitution, and they rejected any sense of a supreme council of clerics. I think some of the most respected clerics in Iraq have spoken out about the importance of not having clerics involved in government. So these are two very different places. And we know that Iran and Iraq should have good relations. We want them to be transparent relations. But they're neighbors. I would hope they will have good relations.

Now, as to the US role, the US role has been, after the Iraqi people spoke about who they would elect, to try and help them at a difficult and delicate time to bridge their differences, to come to a government of national unity. It is clearly a government in which all Iraqis feel that they can be represented.

One of the lessons of democracy is that just because you are in the majority doesn't mean that you can rule simply by majority; you have to, if you're going to have a stable political system, reach out and bring in the interests of minorities. And I see Iraqis who have internalized this principle better than I would have thought possible in a political system that's not that mature. So you see Kurds talking to Shia, and Shia talking to Sunni, and Sunnis talking to Kurds, and Turkomen and Assyrians and others being involved as well, because they have in their constitution a framework for the resolution of differences that would protect minority rights, that would protect the ability of those who can always be outvoted at the polls because they don't have the numbers, but who need to be included in order for the government to be stable. And that's the process that Zal Khalilzad is supporting.

MS. PLEMING: Reconstruction in Iraq has not produced the results that the US Government necessarily hoped for. The oil exports are at about 1 million barrels a day, which is below prewar levels, and just yesterday two Iraqi pipelines were blown up. And this is the money that was meant to help rebuild Iraq along with the $22 billion that the US has put into it. How are you going to turn the corner here, do you think, in giving reconstruction a big push so that Iraqis on the ground can really see that their lives are changing for the better?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, first of all, many of the reconstruction projects have made a tremendous difference. I think that if we underestimated anything, we underestimated the decrepit nature of the infrastructure; and it has taken a lot of resources just to keep the infrastructure going. We've made some improvements to it as well, but an awful lot has had to go into simply maintaining and running an infrastructure that is many, many years past its prime because Saddam Hussein did not make investments in that infrastructure.

It is true that the oil production and export has been down in recent weeks. This is not the history of the entire period that we've been there; in fact, oil exports were above prewar levels for a significant portion of time. But there have been -- they've been subject -- as you said, the pipelines and other infrastructure have been subject to attacks as I think the insurgents have tried to target the infrastructure. Because they're having more trouble targeting the political process, I think they do hope that targeting the infrastructure will weaken the political process. And we are looking hard at what more we and particularly the Iraqis can do to strengthen security on the infrastructure.

The other thing that we've done is that while the initial design of the infrastructure program had been for large infrastructure projects, we have done some of those and will continue to do some of those, but we've also taken a good deal of the money and reprogrammed it to smaller projects in a more localized environment. And those, I think, have been quite successful -- a water sewage plant here or a local infrastructure project there. It's been a part of also the process by which as the Iraqi -- as we've been able to clear certain areas, particularly in the Sunnis areas, of insurgents and then have Iraqi forces that are sufficient to hold those areas, to then go in and build projects in those areas. So there's been an adjustment in our philosophy of reconstruction as well back toward more local projects that, frankly, have a more immediate impact on people's lives.

MR. HUDSON: Can we turn to North Korea? Do you think there's a way around the current impasse with the US crackdown on North Korean counterfeiting?

SECRETARY RICE: Yes, there is a way. The North Koreans could start living by the law. We want the six-party talks to resume and we've made very clear -- Chris Hill made clear when he was in Beijing -- no conditions. We'll do it immediately. But the North Korean activities that include counterfeiting our money are not going to go unaddressed by the President of the United States. He has to defend the currency. And I think our partners, by the way, understand that; and no one wants to allow the North Koreans to engage in illicit activities.

But I believe that we can get back to the six-party talks. When we do, we have a statement of principles negotiated in September that can be worked from. A lot of work went into that and so I would certainly hope that we could begin soon.

MR. HUDSON: That process of bringing North Korea back to the talks, is it at all complicated by the fact that some of your partners -- South Korea and China -- they're giving assistance to North Korea? Perhaps there isn't enough of a squeeze on North Korea?

SECRETARY RICE: No, I don't think -- the Chinese and the South Koreans give assistance for a variety of reasons, but they have been successful in getting the North Koreans to engage in the talks. I think that you would hear from our negotiators that when the talks are going on, they tend to be professional and people move forward. So these talks can get back on track, but the North Koreans have got to make a choice that they're ready to come back and they have to come back unconditionally.

MS. GIACOMO: What is proving most difficult in trying to reach a nuclear agreement with the Indians? And after Under Secretary Burns' trip to Delhi recently, how close is India to an acceptable separation agreement?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I don't -- I'm not going to get into the details of the diplomacy. This is a difficult set of issues because this is a set of behaviors and a set of programs that have a particular history and now, in order to move on to a new phase in which civil nuclear power would be available to India, India has to make some difficult choices. So I think we're making progress. I think Nick believes that we made progress when he was out there.

But it's very important to understand that in order to satisfy the concerns of the American Congress, our laws, and the concerns of the Nuclear Suppliers Group, that there will have to be some steps taken to make sure that the proliferation risks are not enhanced by this deal.

MR. HUDSON: Today you've been in office a year, and when you came in -- almost a year -- and you came in with some --

SECRETARY RICE: Is it today?

MR. MCCORMACK: No, the 28th. Today's the 26th.

SECRETARY RICE: 28th.

MR. HUDSON: You looked at the map and you had Israeli-Palestinian conflict to sort out, you had to prevent Iran and North Korea getting nuclear weapons, and you had to sort out Iraq. All of those seem still high on the agenda and still pretty messy. What is it that you point to as maybe your best achievement? Is it that you got Europe to work with you on Iran, or have you got something better than that?

SECRETARY RICE: Saul, I think I'm going to wait until the end of my term to try to talk about accomplishments. Matter of fact, I probably, given the way that I view history, ought to wait until I'm in a rocking chair someplace 30 years from now to determine what those accomplishments have been because we're going through big, historic, changing events here and they're going to be, as you put it, messy and there are going to be ups and downs in that process, and fits and starts in that process.

But if you look at the sort of grand sweep of what we've experienced in the last year, we've experienced three successful Iraqi elections and now an Iraq with a constitution and in the process of government formation. We have seen Syrian forces leave Lebanon, and free and fair elections held in Lebanon. Yes, the Lebanese Government is struggling; but you know, we're less than a year after the removal of Syrian forces. We've seen the Kuwaiti women enfranchised with the vote. We've seen multiparty elections in Egypt for the first time -- yes, with difficulties and elections that were in some aspects disappointing; but the political canvas in Egypt will never be the same, the political conversation in Egypt will never be the same now. We have seen in the Palestinian territories elections held and we will see what the response is now of those who must actually now govern Palestinian people who expect a better life and who expect a peaceful life. And we've seen the end of the Bonn process in Afghanistan, the completion of a process that began with the overthrow of one of the most brutal regimes in modern times, the Taliban.

I could go on and on and on. It's been quite an eventful year. Yes, I'm very pleased that I think we're working so well with our European allies. I don't know if you were with me on that first trip, Saul, but I think you were, and when I look back to March of that year, or prior -- sorry, January -- or February of that year, I was struck by the tone in which it seemed to be that the United States had somehow become the problem. Well, if only the United States would do a little bit more with Iran and maybe these negotiations would succeed. And there was a sense that maybe Europe was somehow mediating between the United States and Iran. And I found that very uncomfortable. And I came back, I talked to the President about it. He went to Europe. He also found that uncomfortable. And we devised a strategy that put the United States squarely behind the European negotiations. I think that has moved the Russians as well, and to a certain extent the Chinese, and where no one now blames the United States for the fact that the Iranians are doing what they're doing. It is rightfully now -- the spotlight is on Iran. The isolation is of Iran.

And I think that is just emblematic of what we and the Europeans can do together. I think that there are many issues over the last year that we've worked exceedingly well with the French on -- the Syria-Lebanon situation. The meetings that I've held today demonstrate a commonality of views about what the international community needs to see as we go forward in the Palestinian territories. So yes, I think that the fact that we are spending less time talking about whither the transatlantic alliance and more time talking about what the transatlantic alliance is doing together to deal with the challenge of Iran or to deal with the challenge of Middle East peace or to deal with the challenges of Sudan, quite far from what would have normally even been thought a transatlantic issue, yes, I'm very pleased to have been part of that.

Previous Stories:
  Bush, Rice say Palestinian elections show power of democracy   (1/27/2006)
  Mubarak phones Abbas on Palestinian elections   (1/27/2006)
  Israel refuses to deal with Hamas   (1/27/2006)
  Hamas: Israel is not a peace partner   (1/27/2006)
  American warning against Hamas participation in Palestinian legislative elections   (1/17/2006)

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