Scientist Ben Jaffel shares his views on science and technology in the Arab states
Regional, Science, 4/11/2000

We discuss as part of a continuing interview with Tunisian Dr. Lotfi Ben Jaffel, from the Institute of Astrophysics of Paris, following his recent discovery in the field of planetary physics, his views related to science and technology in the Arab states. Part 2.

In part 1 of the interview, we talked with Dr. Ben Jaffel about his most recent discoveries. Before we talk about Arab-related science issues, we briefly touch on his other scientific work.

ArabicNews: What about your other scientific work?

Ben Jaffel: I think I can summarize my work that we made two previous discoveries, one with respect to Jupiter. It was -- I like that discovery because we made the prediction-- you know as human beings, we like to start things from the beginning-- and we were very happy when our work is confirmed by observation, so in 1993 I made a prediction that supersonic turbulence should be observable in the upper atmosphere of Jupiter; in 1996 it was confirmed by Hubble Space Telescope observations. It was -- I think -- published in Science magazine in 1996 and another discovery I made, it was with respect to Saturn. We discovered that the planet has a dark aurora over it. When you observe the planet, you see a kind of a dark circle around the pole-- the north pole of the planet. Usually it is bright, the aurora is bright, but that time it was dark. And this gave us the information that there is aerosols -- haze.

ArabicNews: Haze.?

Ben Jaffel: Yes, aerosols and haze which absorb the UV light and make all that region -- the oval -- very dark;

I even wrote (like) a poem on that.

ArabicNews: What?

Ben Jaffel: Kind of a literature text. I published in French, because that reminded me about an Arabic writer Ibn Hazm (11th century) and his book Tawkou Al-Hamama (the Dove's Necklace). Saturn with its dark auroral oval appeared much like a dove with a dark necklace!!

------------ Arab science related issues



ArabicNews: You've studied in Tunisia--

Ben Jaffel: Yes.

ArabicNews: -- and you've studied in France.

Ben Jaffel: Yes.

ArabicNews: How would you say your education in Tunisia prepared you for your further education and what was the quality of your education. Which university did you go to? Let's start with that.

Ben Jaffel: The Faculty of Science of Tunis. And I think that in our countries -- whatever Arab country -- I don't think there is any difference between Tunisia or Morocco or Egypt or others, at least from what I see from the contact I have with different students from different Arabic countries, the level is very strong. I mean the theoretical level. When these students arrive to France or England or Germany or any other country they have very high level of education on the theoretical point of view. And just to give you an example, on the place of University of Paris at the Ph.D. level, 40 percent of the Ph.D. theses in Paris are from North African origin.

ArabicNews: North African Arab countries?

BJ: Yes.

ArabicNews: That's quite remarkable.

BJ: 40 percent.

ArabicNews: 40 percent. That's from North African Arab countries

BJ: ... usually the contact between -- France and these countries is much stronger than other countries because of the colonial history.

ArabicNews: Now, that's on the theoretical side, which my understanding is that you're implying that on the practical or in terms of the observatory and in terms of equipment and research, they're probably not as strong, I'm guessing.

BJ: That's the problem.

ArabicNews: And what is the reason for this? Is it basically economics that the universities are not equipped like they should be because they simply don't have the funds? It's very expensive to do that kind of research.

BJ: Yes. The problem is equipment and these universities are poor. They don't have the necessary funds to-- Basically the available funds provide the student an education on the theoretical level, which means that these students need to come to Europe to learn more on the observational or experimental sites. And this could be very positive in fact.

ArabicNews: How so?

BJ: Because this will compliment their formation (as) students and be positive to the country if these students could go back (home) and work with the new experience they would obtain in Europe or the United States. But the problem is that, as I'm doing right now, when you come (to France), you get the formation and then you stay. So that means that our countries are losing, in fact.

ArabicNews: Yes, because they simply don't have the resources. You need the equipment to do your research...

BJ: Yes. When they go back to Tunisia or Egypt or Algeria or whatever country, the conclusion, I mean the comment they make usually is that they are scientifically almost "dead."

ArabicNews: Dead?

BJ: Yes.

ArabicNews: Well, that's a very strong statement that has tremendous implications because if basic research is dead, then the technology one level up from it or two levels up are likely to be very weak because they cannot be supported by good research. Is that accurate, or what is your feeling? How would you describe that connection and its effect on the Arab world, and how have you seen it in terms of its effect on industry, it's effect on research so that you can have technological progress? Have you made any connections and how would you describe them?

BJ: I think, I worked for a while on the connection between theory or at least fundamental physics research and relationships to technology. In Europe or the United States, they have the background to make the connection. They have a history because they started a long time ago so the problem does not exist in terms of linking fundamental research and transferring it to technology

ArabicNews: So what you're saying is that there is no research base to build upon in the different fields to move up from that level to technology

BJ: Yeah, in our countries there is no background in that fundamental research level to move from that level to industry. We have the people to do that, but if there is no organization in our countries to strengthen that level, and that needs time.

Q Is the problem then organizational, or is it funds, or is it both?

BJ: To have a picture of research organization in our countries, it's-- I would say politics. I mean the role of politics is to define for a country or for a group of countries such picture. Also, we cannot anymore talk about just one country. It 's over. You have to think about regions and Arabic countries as a group... much like what the Europeans are doing right now so that we can use their different resources. There are poor countries on the Arabic side and there are more mature countries and we have to organize the full structure in the different countries to make the process of transfer of technology from the fundamental level to the factories and the technologies in a more efficient way. Which means that we need a voluntary decision-- but on the level of the (group of) countries, not just one country.

ArabicNews: So what basically-- and this is a problem that's faced time-and-again in the Arab states is that they're not using each others resources properly so that wealthier countries perhaps can fund countries that have the people resources, the expertise, so that they can all of them benefit at the same time from their competitive advantage. Is that what you're saying?

BJ: Yes. We ought just to copy the European countries, what they are doing right now.

ArabicNews: In terms of their model of cooperation.

BJ: Yes, just the model of cooperation.

ArabicNews: In collaboration in science and other fields as well.

BJ: Yes. The European countries are using their resources to complement each others' to make more efficient their role in the world. On the science side, this is very important because the technology of tomorrow should be built now. It's the theory I'm doing right now, the modeling I'm doing now, that may have an application in ten years from now.

ArabicNews: And I'm sure that the Arab states will not be able to take advantage of it because they're not prepared and they're not preparing right now to take advantage of it.

BJ: Yes. But what is funny is that when you look at the situation right now: we have a lot of young people, very bright. All around me, students, just one student from Algeria, another from Tunisia, another from another country-- I mean they are really very bright. They can do a wonderful job. They have plenty of energy. So why not use our resource? And we have plenty of resources-- money, infrastructure, we are close to each other. I mean the countries are close and are not far from each other. We can start from Morocco down to Syria or Iraq or any of our countries and we can have common scientific background for all these countries. And it is unfortunate, but we are not using this.

But it's easy to criticize. And that's why we are trying-- a group of scientists-- to build a kind of network. A lot of initiatives of this kind exist all over Europe or USA. And for that we need the support from our "rulers" of course, they're the people who are in charge of our countries, but we also need the support from the people of our countries, the public and I would say the media, like you should support any initiative to reach that level of cooperation and collaboration between Arab countries and to make it much stronger in the future. In any case, I do believe that all these individual initiatives are just seeds that may produce a lot if a common political organization is made in this field all over the Arabic countries.

The Europeans made their community based on the money "euro". I would suggest that an Arabic community would base its foundation on intelligence and science in our countries... a dream!

ArabicNews: you said basic research is dead in the Arab states. One level up from basic research is technology --Do you know much about the status of technology-- Do you see the process improving by osmosis, by transfer of technology from the West? Do you have any insight into what the current situation is. How do you see things moving, and what should be done?

BJ: Well, I would say that it takes time to go from basic research to technology. And we need time for that.

ArabicNews: And basically my question's focus is it's going to take some time to establish research, so a lot of countries like Japan or Korea before they did basic research-- especially South Korea, for example-- they skipped into technology and then they moved down into basic research when they had the funds to do it.

BJ: Yes. Right now I think-- that's my understanding, at least from what I see as programs of research in some countries -- in our countries are used just to compliment the research being offered in Europe... Moreover if we have the resources like Japan, I mean that they decided to move to the research level because they saw that if they don't invest that amount of money right now, they will lose all the technology of 2010.

ArabicNews: Yes, and the future. What do you see as the best course to move in terms of the Arab states in terms of scientific progress and technology. If you were to say in couple of sentences the outlines of a plan, what would that be, and I understand that you already mentioned that they need better organization among themselves so that they can use each other's resources, but at the technological level how would you say -- the best way to approach it, technology transfer, etcetera?

Ben Jaffel: Well, I will say that we use first our resources in a more efficient way by gathering together, putting together all these Arab countries' resources. And the technology -- I think -- it will be a mistake to take the same of what is used here in Europe -- we have to base our efforts on our young people foundation right now.

ArabicNews: So you think information is absolutely crucial to be available for young people?

Ben Jaffel: We have plenty of young people that have very strong foundation. And if we give them the resources, the necessary resources, I think we'll be ready within the next 10 years.

ArabicNews: So we need the information, we need the resources--

Ben Jaffel: Yes, you have just to make a list of all our young people all over European countries, American side and Arab side to see what are the resources available in different fields of research from physics to mathematics or whatever is the field. And based on that we'll say okay, we are going to put this amount of money and of organization and to decide that in that country and other countries of the Arab nation we are going to build this program of research, focusing on fields which should be our first interest, depending on our resources and the future we're seeking for our countries.

ArabicNews: So basically prioritize what the interest of the Arab states are in terms of technology and research and go after that.

Ben Jaffel: Yes. We can discuss for a long time about what is the best thing for our countries--

ArabicNews: That's a subject for another time.

Ben Jaffel: Yes. But we have the intelligence. We have the people. I think the time is good to organize things right now.

ArabicNews: Thank you very much.

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