Interview with US officials: Libya - Sudan - and Maghreb countries, Part 2
Regional, Politics, 3/27/2000

This is an interview by U.S.A. based ArabicNews.com with a senior US State Department Official regarding some of the main issues relating to US policy and views on Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia. Part 2:

ArabicNews: The US seems to have made a couple of moves recently that are seen by some as an opening, and yet the State Department has mentioned that there is no change in US policy towards Libya. How should we interpret those moves that have been done in terms of sending a delegation to Libya and other minor moves?

Senior State Department Official: Well I think you¹ve probably seen exactly the reaction that the [US State] Department¹s had to that. I would not over-interpret anything about the very narrow focus of this consular visit to Libya which is intended strictly to assess what the physical security conditions that affect possible American travelers are. That¹s what the purpose of the visit is.

ArabicNews: The US has emphasized in the past that the Lockerbie issue is central to it¹s policy regarding the sanctions

Senior State Department Official: It certainly is and remains so.

ArabicNews: Now once we get past that and assuming that that is resolved does that mean automatically the lifting (end) of sanctions?

Senior State Department Official: Let me be very careful, though. That issue is very far from resolved.

And let me explain exactly how, because I want to make sure that it¹s perfectly clear to your readership. When the Pan Am suspects were handed over last April, the multilateral sanctions were suspended, but they weren¹t permanently lifted. And Libya wants them permanently lifted of course because that will be a sign that their international pariah status would not exist anymore. For those suspended sanctions to be lifted, they have to cooperate with the trial in the Netherlands, which starts in May. They have to pay compensation to the families of the victims of the crime and they have to cease completely their support for terrorism. None of these tasks has been completely fulfilled yet. our focus-- our policy focus-- is on the need for the Libyans to make those moves. And so to talk about a developing bilateral relationship before all of those things have been done is just premature.

ArabicNews: Can you be specific ... in terms of support for terrorism and they¹ve indicated the statements, US statements before, that Libya -- there are all kind of indications they¹re not as supportive of terrorism. Can you be more specific in defining that term for us. What is exactly meant by that.

Senior State Department Official: There¹s clearly been some improvement. There¹s clearly been some improvement, especially with regard to the Palestinian rejectionist groups. And as Ambassador Neumann said in his speech before the Middle East Institute before, Abu Nidal, who used to be given safe haven in Libya has been kicked out of Libya. We think he¹s in Iraq. The Palestinian rejectionist groups in Tripoli who used to be, who used to be kind of idolized and lionized by the Libyan regime have now been told that they have to report to Mr. Arafat and that the Libyan government will be dealing with Palestinian issues in a way that¹s supportive of Arafat. For one of the original so-called Arab radical states to take this attitude is a very important change. I would also note that Libya and for most of the last 30 years has been trying to undermine and overthrow the governments of neighboring countries. They have stopped doing that, and in fact in-- there¹ve been several cases where they have cooperated with other Arab states in rounding up extremist elements who were trying in fact to author terrorist acts and overthrow the governments in those states. So there has been a real change. But of course, I would also say that cooperation in the conduct of the trial-- and of course the trial is all about terrorism-- cooperation in the trial is also very relevant to the question of whether support for terrorism has ceased.

ArabicNews: How does the US look upon the oil opportunities in Libya? There was a delegation that was sent to several months ago to Libya. What was the function of that delegation. What was the purpose of that delegation?

Senior State Department Official: That delegation had a very, very specific thing in mind. When the unilateral, the US economic sanctions were imposed on Libya in the eighties, the oil companies that were doing business there wrote agreements about their existing interests with the Libyan government, called ³standstill agreements.² So the people who went on those trips went there not to look at new business opportunities, but to see what the state of their existing interests under those standstill agreements was.

ArabicNews: What was their finding? Are you familiar with it?

Senior State Department Official: I don¹t know.

ArabicNews: How does the US look upon Libya¹s role in Sudan? They¹re playing a major role in terms of the Egyptian- Libyan role.

Senior State Department Official: I¹m not sure that I would agree with that.

ArabicNews: How would you characterize their role?

Senior State Department Official: Well let me start with what Libya seems to think that it¹s role in Africa is. First of all, for all of his 31 years in power, Gaddafi has considered himself to be a major African figure. A kind of a¹la Nasser, who of course Nasser thought that he was a major African figure as well. For a lot of that time, Gaddafi has tried to have that role by being supportive of different factions in different internal struggles in different African states. Often that¹s just meant money to one group of another of sometimes that¹s meant arms. A lot of times that¹s been-- we¹ve considered it to be a very negative and destructive role. Gaddafi, I noticed in the Arab press several times over the last couple of years, he¹s talked about Africa, and in fact in his great speech-- you know when he kind of declared himself to be an African, you know which one I¹m talking about--

ArabicNews: Yes.

Senior State Department Official: --about a year ago? He had an argument that a lot of people he used to support as national liberation movements have in fact taken over the governments of their countries. So he went on to argue that their taking over those states meant that his interest in Africa had changed. It had changed from national liberation to stability of those states and conflict resolution. It¹s clear that he has a role. So I guess our bottom line if he has a role-- and we would prefer that he not-- but if he does, he should exercise his influence constructively. And if you look -- if you look around, I would say that he has a mixed record on whether he¹s been constructive or not.

In Sudan, the Libyan initiative is now the Egyptian - Libyan initiative. It¹s not clear what the fate of that is going to be. It¹s not clear how that fits with the IGAD process that the African states were having, so I think -- you know it¹s still too early to judge whether that¹s going to be a positive or negative role.

ArabicNews: What is the main distinction as the US sees it between the IGAD and the Egyptian-Libyan initiative on Sudan and what is the US position on this?....

Senior State Department Official: The IGAD declaration of principles serves-- is something that all of the players in Sudan have signed up to, so it¹s our government¹s position that that being the case, everyone should work under the IGAD umbrella. And the Egyptian - Libyan initiative is not really at war with the IGAD declaration of principles. There¹s no unbridgable gap there. But I would argue that the difference is that there¹s some parts of the Sudanese opposition concentrate on the self-determination article of the IGAD declaration of principles, and the Egyptians and the Libyans de-emphasize the self-determination part of the declaration of principles.


ArabicNews: There are a lot of questions on southern Sudan and the oil area and with allegations that there is an interest in having the south being a separate entity for that purpose aside from the other criteria that are being mentioned as the south has its own characteristics as animists, etc. What is the US position about those kinds of allegations? What are US views on that aspect of it?

Senior State Department Official: Well, I think that (our specialists on Africa) would say that our policy is to concentrate on a peace process that is going to solve the problem that there is no explicit policy of support for the breakup of Sudan.

ArabicNews: Since Egypt, and it¹s been reiterated several times that (Egypt is) looked upon as a strategic partner of the US, do you think it¹s valid then to question whether the US should support the Egyptian initiative considering how important and strategic Sudan is to Egypt? Should the US be much more supportive toward the Egyptian - Libyan initiative and take the kind of a supportive role to Egypt in trying to insure its interests in Sudan?

Senior State Department Official: We have a very close relationship with Egypt. We have good cooperation in consultations with Egypt on Sudan issues. That consultation has increased considerably in the last several months. We need to find a way to work together with the Egyptians and with the IGAD partners, and everybody needs to have a role. Egypt has a lot of assets and a lot of interests in Sudan. The IGAD partner countries also have interests and influence at least with some people in Sudan, so I think that instead of talking about, you know-- I think the most productive means of solving the problem is to get all of the parties who have influence and interest together and get them working together to solve the problem, instead to have kind of a tug-of-war and the issue.

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ArabicNews: The energy secretary was just visiting Algeria. What is the purpose of the visit and what are the main focal points of US-Algerian interests in relations right now.

Senior State Department Official: Well, I mean obviously Secretary Richardson is in the process of touching base with many different governments of producers and consumers of petroleum to try to find a way to address the problem which we all know so well about with regard to oil prices.

Editor¹s note: We missed a extremely small portion of the interview here due to a technical problem (the unnoticed failure of the recording machine).

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ArabicNews: (The US has been very supportive of Morocco¹s internal policy and has been impressed by Morocco¹s achievement and what the Moroccans are trying to do, so our question relates to the Sahara issue and the US position on that. What is the US position?)

Senior State Department Official: First of all we support the UN¹s efforts to try to get the issue resolved. It¹s gone on for 25 years. That¹s too long. It¹s been a constant source of instability in a region that needs more stability. We support Secretary Baker as Kofi Annan¹s special representative in his efforts. You recall he got the parties together in Houston in September 1997 and the parties recommitted to the referendum process after that. The referendum process has its ups and downs. Different parties at different times don¹t like different aspects of the process because they touch on their ultimate interests. Different parties at different times have an interest in slowing the process down. We support the process because that is in fact what the parties have signed up to and said that they want to be the mechanism to solve the dispute. We will continue to support that process. If the parties working with Secretary Baker come up with some other means that they agree on of solving the dispute, I would imagine that we would be supportive of that as well.

ArabicNews: How has that affected the Eizenstat initiative. What¹s the status of the Eizenstat...

Senior State Department Official: It¹s not affecting it at all.

ArabicNews: It hasn¹t affected it? Because Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco are in this, and that conflict that currently exists, the friction between Morocco and Algeria, that hasn¹t interfered with this process (the Eizenstat initiative)?

Senior State Department Official: No, I don¹t think it has. They have kind of a natural rivalry as many neighboring states often do. They¹re about the same size. They both consider themselves to be natural leaders of the region. We can have very good, productive and fruitful relations with both. We would like very much if they got along better bilaterally. We¹ve been encouraging that. We think that a better bilateral relationship between the two of them would probably also help make the Western Sahara conflict easier for the Polisario and Morocco to deal with.

We think that better relations between the two would be more conducive to more regional integration economically ,would be conducive to more stable political relations in the region, would be a valuable thing for Europe which -- some people would say that the soft underbelly of Europe which used to be-- the states on the northern side of the Mediterranean. The soft underbelly is now the states on the southern side of the Mediterranean. So there¹s all sorts of reasons why we would like the two states to get along better.

ArabicNews: What¹s the US national interest in that region specifically, in Morocco, Tunisia -- the coastal areas -- can you describe them to us.

Senior State Department Official: Well, first of all we have long-standing relations with all three, so we have standing interest in keeping good bilateral relations and having better bilateral relations. We have an interest in the stability of the region overall because in and of itself and because it in turn is directly linked to the strategic interests of Europe.

ArabicNews: Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us.

Previous Stories:
  Interview with senior US officials on regional issues: Part 1, Egypt   (3/25/2000)

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